The apocalyptic bits of Yeshua's speech have always been the toughest bits on my teeth, Martin. Glad to see what you will come up with on this quest. Back before Foxwomen and shirts sewn of bogdown I was too sick with the literal and historicism to keep its texture close to the skin. From this side though you set the lure and that Bulgakov fellow also seems interesting. I do remember that Christian anarchist Jacques Ellul's work on the book was what helped cleanse him from the toxins of Calvin and sent him towards a universalism worthy of Phantastes. I read it some years ago and owe it a reunion. You might find something useful in his unique trip through it. I catch Ellul's scent the fire Kingsnorth seems to spend a fair few nights around this season. Can't recall the level of mythos in it as I didn't have that eye open back then. But its cheaply pocketed again now that its back in print. Thanks for doing this work.
Andrew, I, too, appreciated Ellul's take on many things. Never made it to his book on Revelation, however; will have to do that. I did appreciate one of his earlier works, The Presence of the Kingdom, which harks of Martin's comment today about "Revelation is happening always if we can just behold it. I begin to come back to myself. I look around." Cheers...
Hey Eric. Back in the day read everything he had in english translation in a mad frenzy when I discovered his Anarchy and Chrsitianity. We had some seminars on him at Cornerstone Fest where we tried to slip his ideas into American Evangelicals pockets when they weren't looking. Presence and Subversion have both slipped away a bit in my memory. I recently ordered Betrayal of the West to see how it has aged. I will give Presence another go as well. Thanks for the reply.
I’m just finishing up “Courting the Wild Twin” on Audible. I did skip to chapter 4 at the end of 1 to listen to the stories in their entirety. I must admit that the first story suddenly, and unexpectedly, found me weeping in my car as I listened. I’m very grateful you take the time to record these Martin. I have a feeling I’m going to end up not being able to listen to anyone else telling stories…….
The Donkey Path is such a great title. I’ve thought about the donkey, how it represents stamina and determination and a lot of integrity that is often misunderstood as stubbornness. How it thrives on such meager portions. The Book of Job mentions the donkey a lot.
I’m not familiar with Robert Bly, but now I’m curious.
Job chapter 24, it’s a fascinating read. There are a few references to donkeys there. Ok now I’m off to find out who Robert Bly is and why he talks into the ear of the donkey……
Thank you Martin. This moved me deeply. It is not lost on me that this arrived on Yom Kippur, and on the second day of Durga Puja, the great Hindu honoring of the great mother. Kali, an aspect of Durga, both frightful and transforming, a demanding goddess who bears some resemblance to the image of Christ you describe. I am not, oh not in any way seeking to equate all this. I am just experiencing the wonder of it all. That there are deep rumblings on this day if we choose to notice.
I've just listened to this after seeing Moonage Daydream at the cinema. A tremendous, synesthetic cinematic documentary journey through a cut up of stage and film footage and interviews with David Bowie, just released.
Ziggy's apocalyptic lyrics of that great track Five Years just sprang to mind.
The Book of Revelations is an unknown mystery to me. But my interest is piqued. What would the album sound like? I fell at his feet like a dead man.
Have I confessed my obsession with Dr. Margaret Barker and her work on here yet? I love her. Her perspectives feel like a breath of fresh air along with her scriptural and cultural excavations of Wisdom/Goddess worship(frequently relating to temple traditions). I find her views and research on Christianity fascinating. Definitely check her out. My second confession is that I haven’t read all of her books(still a work in progress). Dr. Barker has numerous books(at least one on Revelations and a short video) and videos on YouTube. I want to be her research assistant, if she’ll have me. 😁🤓
Sarah, I looked up Margaret’s YouTube Revelation video “the woman clothed with the sun” after I saw your comment. I instantly wanted to draw her prim hairdo and composed face from an earlier British period, and was thus taken by surprise when her lecture blew the top off my head. Definitely revolutionary, and accompanied by the puzzling devotion of Mormons with her Temple theology. I will need help from mythic sources to reconcile this with an Orthodox view!
You described her perfectly, Lucy! If you have any questions about the Mormon temple stuff, I can help. I grew up Mormon and kind of still am(too long to explain in comments).😆 Are any of you going to the beasts and vines meet up in Oct? I wish I was going so that we could discuss things in person. I’m not scheduled to go, unless a miracle happens. ❤️
It has been a strange row to hoe out here on the wild edge, bringing rural heft to the contemplative Christian monastic tradition. Not embarrassed of it… even though to fall for its beauty is to be patronized, even by internal gatekeepers who’ve forgotten that oral tradition is also valid/alive. Very grateful to know you waited and watched in Patmos. For my part this week, it appears I will be sitting in St Ninian’s cave, bringing timeless openness to the ancient door, making a threshold, between the pre-axial and the Christian pantheon. I come to the earth-based Christ from “this” side, having never really left… (not really)… and many are coming back from the other side, and I hope we can meet somewhere at the middle, because it is collective compression and threshold we need now. Not just threshold for the current apocalypse, but we need to open all of them, all the way back… make room for the ever present origin to flow throughout all time.
Thank you for the Sunday Bread Martin. My mind is awash with the imagery that you create with your writing. I think I will sit in the peace of the cave a bit longer.
"Revelation is happening always if we can just behold it. I begin to come back to myself. I look around." So true -- everywhere, all the time! Love reading your reflections on encountering Revelation and old John, and sitting in his cave. Speaking of caves: John's script doesn't read like Plato's, but then it seems John stayed in the cave and explored the shadows, while Plato got the hell out of there....... The Revelation of John has suffered more than most (books and epistles of the Bible) what with the modern and perhaps not so modern literal interpretation of these incredible visions and, well, revelations, that reek (pleasantly :-) of symbolic wonders and warnings.
Another part I appreciated, your comments regarding the repetitive dynamic of revelation, of the Christ returning over and over... in each person's life! Yes, that is key. It is not a one-time event, it's on-going throughout our lives. Gregory of Nyssa put it well, and I paraphrase, we are going on from perfection to perfection. (This phrase was picked up, by the way, by your fellow Brit, of a few years back :-) John Wesley, who was also intrigued by the early Christians.) "...biblical apocalypse ... involves the return of Christ, rather than resulting in bleak nothingness. Something astonishing is coming. The Divine King returns. This is something that happens over and over and over in the life of a spiritually awake person. So revelation is actually a passage not an ending, it’s leading somewhere."
A pleasant reek - I like that. Thanks Eric. Wesley once preached in St Raphael's chapel on Dartmoor ( I mention in Scatterlings). I sheltered from the rain there once and found a wood burning stove, kindling and a book on Robin Hood.
I teach the Bible and always have been entranced by Revelation. My favorite being 7:17 - For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” One study I do is exploring what is Jesus like now - post ascension and glorified John 7:37-39 is a key, the one who gives the Holy Ghost. I go through his appearances and words he did post-ascension in Acts and in 2 Corinthians 12. I come to the face like the sun scene in Revelation 1 and hearken back then to Ezekiel 1 showing the same person is seen there. And finish with the tender touch of his right hand on John and his most lovely words of comfort,
You are welcome! Yes, that touch and those words “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One . . . . . “ and the present here and now inward spring of Living Water - “let him take the free gift of the water of life” and the promise of the new heaven and the new earth are what sustains us through the terror of the end.
As I was reading your Sunday Bread I was reminded of Makoto Fujimura's book: Culture Care, where he riffs on the character in Beowulf - Mearcstapas - or 'border-stalker' or 'border-crosser'. This character apparently was someone who lived on the fringes of their tribe, moving across the border between the material world and the metaphysical; bringing news of another realm and another way of life. It sounds like John was such a person and his book was his diary. And it seems like the call of the Christian in any age.
Also: to add to your journeying in Revelation may I suggest: Reading Revelation Responsibly: Uncivil Worship and Witness: Following the Lamb into the New Creation by Michael Gorman
I always loved to say that the real prophets didn't see into time, rather they saw into depth. Into the here and now, in to the eternity that is continually being unveiled. This is why the Bible speaks so clearly, even now. It speaks to the depths of reality. Truly miraculous.
I love the part where you found revelation in the smallest detail of repetition. A good story always ends us giving us what we didn't know we needed. As someone who sought the visionary experience in the exotic and wild places, I find comfort in the simple obediences of the Orthodox Church. "He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much" (Luke 16:10)
There's also something quite mystical about the Church teachings of the Liturgy and how the Book of Revelation is a description of the Heavenly Liturgy which is reflected here on earth within each Liturgy. When we are standing in the Church, in those rare moments when our hearts are absolutely inside the words being spoken, we are in fact, ontologically, standing in eternity, beyond time and space. The smell of frankincense is the emanation of the archetypal frankincense that we inhabit inside of in the Heavenly Liturgy of eternity. The glow of the icons is the golden glow of the endless light of Heaven. Liturgy is a remembering. A remembering of the future inheritance.
May your journey continually be blessed. And please make it to the PNW on your trip to north America. God knows we need some good stories right now.
Thank's William. If you ever get to London, do attend the Russian Orthodox Cathedral in Knightsbridge for Divine Liturgy. Astonishing - yes, standing in eternity. What a mind bogglingly deep thing to write.
This is a stoneware bowl that we made with a verse I love from Revelation. It is now in a Hawk Creek, a small Lutheran Church in the upper Minnesota River Valley. I agree with Andrew that Revelation is a problem with it grizzly bits and its contemporary interpretation by fundamentalists.
Hello Martin, thank you for this and you’re reading of it was especially moving. I recently listened to a conversation with Johnathan Pageau and another writer who mentioned you on the subject of “strange storytelling.” In the discussion they mused on the possibilities of revelation entering through the “weird.” And that sounds about right to me. I mentioned this to my friend Sunday after our liturgical services. She is a great lover of Flannery O’Connor and referred me to this:
“Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make ye odd.”
did you speak about a Celtic Christian Story where Christ's body becomes a temple for bees in one of your conversations recently (or did I imagine that!?)
Dia dhuit a Martin.. Welcome to the Aegean. Καλώς ήρθες/Hoş geldiniz.. You must not be far—will you be setting foot in Turkey on this trip? If you do, stop in for a visit.. I recommend a visit to Ephesus where John the Apostle is entombed, and Mary's house is tucked high in the hills overlooking the valley below.. legend is she journeyed north to live her final days above the ancient port city of Ephesus. There's scant archaeological evidence but apparently a German nun on her deathbed had a vision of the location of Mary's hut being located there in those very hills. Local tradition holds the same. Stag Cult just arrived in the post and I'm enjoying your Irish peregrinations.. Safe travels!
Stay safe over there dear Ian. I did think about Ephesus whilst I was there y'know. Next time. Glad Stag Cult found you, just had a lovely launch for it at The London Review of Books. I think you would have seen a few old faces. Good cheer, M.
The apocalyptic bits of Yeshua's speech have always been the toughest bits on my teeth, Martin. Glad to see what you will come up with on this quest. Back before Foxwomen and shirts sewn of bogdown I was too sick with the literal and historicism to keep its texture close to the skin. From this side though you set the lure and that Bulgakov fellow also seems interesting. I do remember that Christian anarchist Jacques Ellul's work on the book was what helped cleanse him from the toxins of Calvin and sent him towards a universalism worthy of Phantastes. I read it some years ago and owe it a reunion. You might find something useful in his unique trip through it. I catch Ellul's scent the fire Kingsnorth seems to spend a fair few nights around this season. Can't recall the level of mythos in it as I didn't have that eye open back then. But its cheaply pocketed again now that its back in print. Thanks for doing this work.
One of the things I love in this Parish is all the writers and new leads that arrive. Ellul? I will go dig. Thank you Andrew.
Andrew, I, too, appreciated Ellul's take on many things. Never made it to his book on Revelation, however; will have to do that. I did appreciate one of his earlier works, The Presence of the Kingdom, which harks of Martin's comment today about "Revelation is happening always if we can just behold it. I begin to come back to myself. I look around." Cheers...
Hey Eric. Back in the day read everything he had in english translation in a mad frenzy when I discovered his Anarchy and Chrsitianity. We had some seminars on him at Cornerstone Fest where we tried to slip his ideas into American Evangelicals pockets when they weren't looking. Presence and Subversion have both slipped away a bit in my memory. I recently ordered Betrayal of the West to see how it has aged. I will give Presence another go as well. Thanks for the reply.
I’m just finishing up “Courting the Wild Twin” on Audible. I did skip to chapter 4 at the end of 1 to listen to the stories in their entirety. I must admit that the first story suddenly, and unexpectedly, found me weeping in my car as I listened. I’m very grateful you take the time to record these Martin. I have a feeling I’m going to end up not being able to listen to anyone else telling stories…….
The Donkey Path is such a great title. I’ve thought about the donkey, how it represents stamina and determination and a lot of integrity that is often misunderstood as stubbornness. How it thrives on such meager portions. The Book of Job mentions the donkey a lot.
5 Who set the wild donkey free?
Who released the swift donkey from the harness?
6 I made the wilderness his home
and the salt flats his dwelling.
7 He scorns the tumult of the city
and never hears the shouts of a driver.
8 He roams the mountains for pasture,
searching for any green thing.
Job 39 (from God’s speech)
Thank you Shari. I've been thinking about Robert Bly's last book 'Talking into the Ear of a Donkey' too, he loved their substance and appetite.
I’m not familiar with Robert Bly, but now I’m curious.
Job chapter 24, it’s a fascinating read. There are a few references to donkeys there. Ok now I’m off to find out who Robert Bly is and why he talks into the ear of the donkey……
Thank you Martin. This moved me deeply. It is not lost on me that this arrived on Yom Kippur, and on the second day of Durga Puja, the great Hindu honoring of the great mother. Kali, an aspect of Durga, both frightful and transforming, a demanding goddess who bears some resemblance to the image of Christ you describe. I am not, oh not in any way seeking to equate all this. I am just experiencing the wonder of it all. That there are deep rumblings on this day if we choose to notice.
Thanks so much Martin. I was transported.
The apocalypse through the eyes of Ziggy Stardust
I've just listened to this after seeing Moonage Daydream at the cinema. A tremendous, synesthetic cinematic documentary journey through a cut up of stage and film footage and interviews with David Bowie, just released.
Ziggy's apocalyptic lyrics of that great track Five Years just sprang to mind.
The Book of Revelations is an unknown mystery to me. But my interest is piqued. What would the album sound like? I fell at his feet like a dead man.
Good Sunday morning Dear Martin and Parrish!
What an adventure, Martin!
Have I confessed my obsession with Dr. Margaret Barker and her work on here yet? I love her. Her perspectives feel like a breath of fresh air along with her scriptural and cultural excavations of Wisdom/Goddess worship(frequently relating to temple traditions). I find her views and research on Christianity fascinating. Definitely check her out. My second confession is that I haven’t read all of her books(still a work in progress). Dr. Barker has numerous books(at least one on Revelations and a short video) and videos on YouTube. I want to be her research assistant, if she’ll have me. 😁🤓
Happy October everyone! ❤️
Aha - Dr Margaret Barker. I'm adding her to the list of people to check out this morning over coffee.
Sarah, I looked up Margaret’s YouTube Revelation video “the woman clothed with the sun” after I saw your comment. I instantly wanted to draw her prim hairdo and composed face from an earlier British period, and was thus taken by surprise when her lecture blew the top off my head. Definitely revolutionary, and accompanied by the puzzling devotion of Mormons with her Temple theology. I will need help from mythic sources to reconcile this with an Orthodox view!
You described her perfectly, Lucy! If you have any questions about the Mormon temple stuff, I can help. I grew up Mormon and kind of still am(too long to explain in comments).😆 Are any of you going to the beasts and vines meet up in Oct? I wish I was going so that we could discuss things in person. I’m not scheduled to go, unless a miracle happens. ❤️
Never come across her. Will follow this thread into the trees and see what she is about.
Let me know what you think!
It has been a strange row to hoe out here on the wild edge, bringing rural heft to the contemplative Christian monastic tradition. Not embarrassed of it… even though to fall for its beauty is to be patronized, even by internal gatekeepers who’ve forgotten that oral tradition is also valid/alive. Very grateful to know you waited and watched in Patmos. For my part this week, it appears I will be sitting in St Ninian’s cave, bringing timeless openness to the ancient door, making a threshold, between the pre-axial and the Christian pantheon. I come to the earth-based Christ from “this” side, having never really left… (not really)… and many are coming back from the other side, and I hope we can meet somewhere at the middle, because it is collective compression and threshold we need now. Not just threshold for the current apocalypse, but we need to open all of them, all the way back… make room for the ever present origin to flow throughout all time.
St Ninian's cave! How marvellous Alana. I am excited to hear what comes from that.
It was potent. I’ll be writing about it soon.
Thank you for the Sunday Bread Martin. My mind is awash with the imagery that you create with your writing. I think I will sit in the peace of the cave a bit longer.
"Revelation is happening always if we can just behold it. I begin to come back to myself. I look around." So true -- everywhere, all the time! Love reading your reflections on encountering Revelation and old John, and sitting in his cave. Speaking of caves: John's script doesn't read like Plato's, but then it seems John stayed in the cave and explored the shadows, while Plato got the hell out of there....... The Revelation of John has suffered more than most (books and epistles of the Bible) what with the modern and perhaps not so modern literal interpretation of these incredible visions and, well, revelations, that reek (pleasantly :-) of symbolic wonders and warnings.
Another part I appreciated, your comments regarding the repetitive dynamic of revelation, of the Christ returning over and over... in each person's life! Yes, that is key. It is not a one-time event, it's on-going throughout our lives. Gregory of Nyssa put it well, and I paraphrase, we are going on from perfection to perfection. (This phrase was picked up, by the way, by your fellow Brit, of a few years back :-) John Wesley, who was also intrigued by the early Christians.) "...biblical apocalypse ... involves the return of Christ, rather than resulting in bleak nothingness. Something astonishing is coming. The Divine King returns. This is something that happens over and over and over in the life of a spiritually awake person. So revelation is actually a passage not an ending, it’s leading somewhere."
Thanks again!
A pleasant reek - I like that. Thanks Eric. Wesley once preached in St Raphael's chapel on Dartmoor ( I mention in Scatterlings). I sheltered from the rain there once and found a wood burning stove, kindling and a book on Robin Hood.
I teach the Bible and always have been entranced by Revelation. My favorite being 7:17 - For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” One study I do is exploring what is Jesus like now - post ascension and glorified John 7:37-39 is a key, the one who gives the Holy Ghost. I go through his appearances and words he did post-ascension in Acts and in 2 Corinthians 12. I come to the face like the sun scene in Revelation 1 and hearken back then to Ezekiel 1 showing the same person is seen there. And finish with the tender touch of his right hand on John and his most lovely words of comfort,
Ah, I see you locating the intimacy I couldn't quite get to in my early readings. Thanks Jeff.
You are welcome! Yes, that touch and those words “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One . . . . . “ and the present here and now inward spring of Living Water - “let him take the free gift of the water of life” and the promise of the new heaven and the new earth are what sustains us through the terror of the end.
As I was reading your Sunday Bread I was reminded of Makoto Fujimura's book: Culture Care, where he riffs on the character in Beowulf - Mearcstapas - or 'border-stalker' or 'border-crosser'. This character apparently was someone who lived on the fringes of their tribe, moving across the border between the material world and the metaphysical; bringing news of another realm and another way of life. It sounds like John was such a person and his book was his diary. And it seems like the call of the Christian in any age.
Also: to add to your journeying in Revelation may I suggest: Reading Revelation Responsibly: Uncivil Worship and Witness: Following the Lamb into the New Creation by Michael Gorman
https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/9799141
Thank you Roy - I do love a Beowulf-Revelation connection early in the morning! And will surely check out Gorman.
I always loved to say that the real prophets didn't see into time, rather they saw into depth. Into the here and now, in to the eternity that is continually being unveiled. This is why the Bible speaks so clearly, even now. It speaks to the depths of reality. Truly miraculous.
I love the part where you found revelation in the smallest detail of repetition. A good story always ends us giving us what we didn't know we needed. As someone who sought the visionary experience in the exotic and wild places, I find comfort in the simple obediences of the Orthodox Church. "He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much" (Luke 16:10)
There's also something quite mystical about the Church teachings of the Liturgy and how the Book of Revelation is a description of the Heavenly Liturgy which is reflected here on earth within each Liturgy. When we are standing in the Church, in those rare moments when our hearts are absolutely inside the words being spoken, we are in fact, ontologically, standing in eternity, beyond time and space. The smell of frankincense is the emanation of the archetypal frankincense that we inhabit inside of in the Heavenly Liturgy of eternity. The glow of the icons is the golden glow of the endless light of Heaven. Liturgy is a remembering. A remembering of the future inheritance.
May your journey continually be blessed. And please make it to the PNW on your trip to north America. God knows we need some good stories right now.
Thank's William. If you ever get to London, do attend the Russian Orthodox Cathedral in Knightsbridge for Divine Liturgy. Astonishing - yes, standing in eternity. What a mind bogglingly deep thing to write.
This is a stoneware bowl that we made with a verse I love from Revelation. It is now in a Hawk Creek, a small Lutheran Church in the upper Minnesota River Valley. I agree with Andrew that Revelation is a problem with it grizzly bits and its contemporary interpretation by fundamentalists.
That bowl is FINE Lucy! So good.
Here is a link to view the image: https://imgur.com/xgGCqUC
Wow, amazing work!
Beautiful bowl, Lucy!❤️
And I marvel at Martin finding words for the deep and quiet ecstatic observance of the felt presence and revelation of the Christ.
Hello Martin, thank you for this and you’re reading of it was especially moving. I recently listened to a conversation with Johnathan Pageau and another writer who mentioned you on the subject of “strange storytelling.” In the discussion they mused on the possibilities of revelation entering through the “weird.” And that sounds about right to me. I mentioned this to my friend Sunday after our liturgical services. She is a great lover of Flannery O’Connor and referred me to this:
“Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make ye odd.”
Be well.
Kathryn
Ha! thanks Kathryn. I think I am speaking to Johnathan later this month.
Hello Martin,
did you speak about a Celtic Christian Story where Christ's body becomes a temple for bees in one of your conversations recently (or did I imagine that!?)
Thanks for clarification,
Kathryn
Oh good! It’s getting curiouser and curiouser…
It really is. All the people are talking to each other. Jesus Christ is being revealed in the uncanny spaces.
φωτεινός
Dia dhuit a Martin.. Welcome to the Aegean. Καλώς ήρθες/Hoş geldiniz.. You must not be far—will you be setting foot in Turkey on this trip? If you do, stop in for a visit.. I recommend a visit to Ephesus where John the Apostle is entombed, and Mary's house is tucked high in the hills overlooking the valley below.. legend is she journeyed north to live her final days above the ancient port city of Ephesus. There's scant archaeological evidence but apparently a German nun on her deathbed had a vision of the location of Mary's hut being located there in those very hills. Local tradition holds the same. Stag Cult just arrived in the post and I'm enjoying your Irish peregrinations.. Safe travels!
Stay safe over there dear Ian. I did think about Ephesus whilst I was there y'know. Next time. Glad Stag Cult found you, just had a lovely launch for it at The London Review of Books. I think you would have seen a few old faces. Good cheer, M.